Hey Shade,

Can you report on new progress in your "distance - problem" ?

We are all curious here

I have found that the distance is what I want to keep on that exercise so for me that piece is what earns the click. Sometimes I find it is to easy for us to work on to many pieces of the puzzle at once. Then the clarity for the dog suffers. Also if I have a helper who understands that the clicker is only a marker and not voodoo/black magic I can let them give the click from their better view point. They do need to remember that the click ends the exercise.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts! It is really wonderful to have so many opinions so that I can think about them and how they would apply to Reik. And also think how I will condition my pup.
Yes Katrin, my clicker timing is horrid in that last video! I am finding it very difficult to see past his huge head and chest to his back feet! I was using the mirrors behind the target but that is hard too. And then he gets frustrated with me, because I am clicking 2 different ways of getting his back feet on the target. Very annoying to him and to me.
Shade

The structure has two components

- the attitude towards the helper

- technical behavior

Shade's dog has enuogh attidude towards the helper, because he is works in french ring, too.
If you look at the work at/in the blind, you can see that the dog will bites the helper not only in the arm. He will have the helper and not the arm.

It will be very difficult to condition the dog to heuwinkl or glöcknermethode.
If I understood correctly, the dog is "still" ok, but you fear that this could not remain so.

I think that here the dog training concept for the known, which was successful, not just on such an experiment should be put at risk. I would work on a visual line, which must not exceed the dog, been working as heuwinkl or glöckner.

so you could throw out the deal of the arm and leave the dog in his already successful. large construction often do you get if you want to make a "small".

so I must detlef in the above-quoted text simply agree.

that would be so my thoughts on this.

greetings from Germany
reinhard[/quote]

Katrin (or Reinhard) could you please send me the original German text? I fear that I do not really get what Reinhard suggests here...

My thoughts...

- barking at/for the ball (as Heuwinkl)
- secure with the leash
- strong helper !!!!, but with feeling for dogs. Very important.
- Spacers in front of the helper
- not only in the blind bark
- not confirm to the back, but against the dog.
- after 3rd times give you the ball the helper without Protective clothing

Very important are here people with a feeling for dogs. A strong helper, that the dog not gets stronger by a not strong helper, but a helper, which has a feeling for a dog.

... and if you want to use the clicker, then it is very important to click in the right moment. In your new video it was not every time correct. But for this exercise is that very important to click at the right moment.

This in from Reinhard. I translate only for him.

The structure has two components

- the attitude towards the helper

- technical behavior

Shade's dog has enuogh attidude towards the helper, because he is works in french ring, too.
If you look at the work at/in the blind, you can see that the dog will bites the helper not only in the arm. He will have the helper and not the arm.

It will be very difficult to condition the dog to heuwinkl or glöcknermethode.
If I understood correctly, the dog is "still" ok, but you fear that this could not remain so.

I think that here the dog training concept for the known, which was successful, not just on such an experiment should be put at risk. I would work on a visual line, which must not exceed the dog, been working as heuwinkl or glöckner.

so you could throw out the deal of the arm and leave the dog in his already successful. large construction often do you get if you want to make a "small".

so I must detlef in the above-quoted text simply agree.

that would be so my thoughts on this.

greetings from Germany
reinhard

shade whitesel hat geschrieben:... since they believe the dog is being "disobedient" and needs punished and I believe that he needs taught ...

In my opinion this is one of the biggest and most common mistakes: dog trainers/ handlers thinking their dogs are being disobedient on purpose. I think you're right, that most of the time the dog has not been taught properly. But sometimes the dog tries to find "shortcuts" to his reward and especially there it is sometimes - but definitely not always - helpful to give this unwanted option a negative connotation, not to punish the dog but to help him understand.

Detlef wrote
"... you have to use new ways but you should not forget what worked very well before, it is that easy. if we want to talk about how to train a dog successfully like the guys from heuwinkel, then you have to see the whole picture, they do use compulsion without any doubt. so try to make up your mind and be open also for what worked well in the past."

Actually the more I train the more I find this to be true. The concepts and the reasons things (including compulsion) have worked in the past is that most of them do have some validity. I really like to know these things because I can decide to get the picture and the training of the dog in a different way since I have chosen to use as little pressure as possible.
I might talk with one of my friends who thinks a flashy bark in the blind can only be obtained with the dog in conflict due to compulsion with the correct distance. Can I create that same "picture" with frustration and no compulsion? I don't know. But so far I think I have created that with this particular dog.

I have learned many things by going to seminars of people with different methods. But when it comes to problem solving, people with different methods are not going to help me, since they believe the dog is being "disobedient" and needs punished and I believe that he needs taught or sometimes that his brain is drawing him where the reinforcement is. I am finding it is a whole new learning experience for me to maintain the dog at National level, than to get him there!

lusna hat geschrieben:AND if somebody wants to change a behaviour he can stick with the old way because trying to change the behaviour without the new methods which are the topic of this forum will not have the expected result?

... you have to use new ways but you should not forget what worked very well before, it is that easy. if we want to talk about how to train a dog successfully like the guys from heuwinkel, then you have to see the whole picture, they do use compulsion without any doubt. so try to make up your mind and be open also for what worked well in the past.

dberensmann hat geschrieben:to compete with a dog on a national level it takes a lot more then just to use positive reinforcement. at least that is what I learned for years. I might be wrong.

... so if this is it at the end, we can stopp discussing here training our dogs for highlevel performance without still using the old way?

AND if somebody wants to change a behaviour he can stick with the old way because trying to change the behaviour without the new methods which are the topic of this forum will not have the expected result?

really - that's what i doubt.

yours,

claudia